Zobo Shepherd: First, I'd like to publicly thank Miss Button Wright for building us this swell practice field
Zobo Shepherd: and I'd also like to thank KaTrina Velde for making us a great website.
Diablo (harold.tryce): yes it is something
Zobo Shepherd: post the link Katrina
KaTrina Velde: http://sldressage.yolasite.com
KaTrina Velde: Site is growing every day
Zobo Shepherd: y'all will want to add that to your favs.
KaTrina Velde: Thanks to the ponies and trainers who appear in the photos.
Zobo Shepherd: so, the big problem with having a Dressage competition is that you can never get anyone to judge them
Zobo Shepherd: Training Judges is one of the major focuses of the Dressage Society
Zobo Shepherd: Our goal as a group is to have Dressage events at least once a month, so everyone will be able to compete, and judge events.
Zobo Shepherd: Now, I don't think anyone here has judged an event
Zobo Shepherd: I know I haven't...I don't know many who have.
Zobo Shepherd: So we have to re-invent the judge
Zobo Shepherd: thank goodness we have help
Zobo Shepherd: Mel Melvin wrote the rules for the SLPGC
Zobo Shepherd: and she will be helping us interpert those rules
Zobo Shepherd: In fact, I have a cry for help into her right now, which you'll see in a minute.
Zobo Shepherd: One of the biggest converstaion points I have with both ponies and trainers about dressage judging is it subjectivity.
KaTrina Velde: Zobo, as we get started and are small, could there be some dressage events that are not competitions? Just to generate interest?
Zobo Shepherd: sure
Zobo Shepherd: lets do it
KaTrina Velde: Could even add a dresseage demo to an existing event, like the races.
KaTrina Velde: Get people to see it.
Zobo Shepherd: sure....lets set it up and do it
Zobo Shepherd: I think thats a great idea Kat.
Zobo Shepherd: get one set up....I'll help all i can
KaTrina Velde: That lets our judges be dressage ponies sometimes as well, which is nice.
Zobo Shepherd: yes...
Zobo Shepherd: well thats the thing.....anyone can be a judge....they just have to be willing to judge an event every now and then and not compete
Zobo Shepherd: for instance...Diablo can compete as a pony in May, June, and July.....but act as a judge in Aug.
Zobo Shepherd: we can all do this
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) nods and continues to listen
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Zobo Shepherd: judges can be ponies, traniners, or owners.
Zobo Shepherd: so they will get a chance to both compete and judge.
KaTrina Velde: Even the Maid Dianthus, until she gets unlocked, can judge. :-)
Diablo (harold.tryce): miss my days of competition are about over i think
Zobo Shepherd: sure.
Zobo Shepherd: lol
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) giggles
Zobo Shepherd: don't say that Diablo
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Zobo Shepherd: anyway, getting back to my point
Zobo Shepherd: one of the biggest questions that is brought up about dressage judging is it's subjectivity
Zobo Shepherd: we are used to times and scores that are absolutes
Zobo Shepherd: there is nothing absolute about dressage judging
Zobo Shepherd: it is all subjective
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) nods in agreement
Diablo (harold.tryce): in part it is why i am working on the faulting dressage
Zobo Shepherd: so we are going to have to get it in our minds that there is no right or wrong....there is only opinion.
Zobo Shepherd: for instance
Zobo Shepherd: My pet peve is walking backwards.
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) listens carefully
Zobo Shepherd: If a pony cannot walk backward correctly, I will probablly take off a lot of points
Zobo Shepherd: KaT on the other hand, may not think that is a big deal
Zobo Shepherd: so I may give the pony a 2
Diablo (harold.tryce): i would also
Zobo Shepherd: and cat may give the pony a 5
Zobo Shepherd: both scores are correct.
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Zobo Shepherd: it is how the judge views the pony
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Zobo Shepherd: now these scores will be averaged together for a final score.
Zobo Shepherd: along with the third judge
Zobo Shepherd: so it will average out.
Zobo Shepherd: that is part of the subjectivity of dressage judging that we have to live with.
Diablo (harold.tryce): ithat is understandable
Zobo Shepherd: any questions so far? My fingers are getting tired.
Zobo Shepherd: lol
KaTrina Velde: So Zobo, can we not figure out any standards, that could reduce the subjectivity a bit?
Zobo Shepherd: the standards are there.
KaTrina Velde: For example...
Zobo Shepherd: how acuratly the pony walks the line
KaTrina Velde: A "5" could be really outstanding. An extremely rare, perfect performance.
Zobo Shepherd: do they present well on the course
Zobo Shepherd: do they follow their trainer properly
Zobo Shepherd: let's take a look at the judging criteria and we can see what the judges should be looking for
KaTrina Velde: Yes. The notecard says "5 meaning it was completed flawlessly" ...
Zobo Shepherd: exactly
KaTrina Velde: So a 5 could be a very rare occurence; an extremely high bar to meet. That would be fine if we all know that.
Zobo Shepherd gave you Dressage Rules & Policy, Part I (1/19/07).
Zobo Shepherd: it is what you consider to be a 5
KaTrina Velde: I've got the Web page up on my other screen. :-)
Zobo Shepherd: you know dressage better than anyone I know...you know when it's being done right and when it's being done wrong.....thats all you need to know to judge
Zobo Shepherd: it isn't rocket science....it's common sense.
Zobo Shepherd: does anyone not have "Dressag Rules & Policy, Part 1?
Swenyia neighs happily at Zobo Shepherd!
Diablo (harold.tryce): i would guess each judge would be looking at the things they value
KaTrina Velde: OK, so I guess I would only give a 5 for accuracy, for example, if every step the pony took around the circle was perfectly placed. A very high standard.
 Swenyia Chuwen whinnys.
curious Haven listens
Swenyia Chuwen whinnies ty Miss Zobo
KaTrina Velde: A pony doing it really well would get a 4, and then down from there.
Zobo Shepherd: yes...everyone get a judging card too....lets look at them both at the same time.
Zobo Shepherd: you can get a judging card from the vendor to my left
KaTrina Velde: http://sldressage.yolasite.com/resources/JudgesCard.txt
Zobo Shepherd: So if you look at the judging card
Zobo Shepherd: you'll see that you give an accuracy score of 0-5 on every part of the dressage field.
KaTrina Velde nods
Zobo Shepherd: so their accuracy on the figure 8 -- 4
Zobo Shepherd: Accuracy on Circle---4
Zobo Shepherd: Accuracy on forward line -- 3
Zobo Shepherd: Accuracy on Backward line -- 1
Zobo Shepherd: Accuracy on slalom -- 4
Zobo Shepherd: 16 / 4 = 16
Zobo Shepherd: then we move on to overall scores
Zobo Shepherd: this is where the subjectivity come into play
Zobo Shepherd: all the above scores are easy
Zobo Shepherd: lets take a look at what the Overall scores are
Zobo Shepherd: Accuracy - The pony's accuracy in following the figures of the arena (stay within the lines, the lines are our friends). Each of the five courses on the dressage field will be given an accuracy rating.
Zobo Shepherd: thats pretty self explainitory
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Zobo Shepherd: Command - How well the trainer commands the pony within the ring. Only one rating for this is needed, and will be judged after the round.
Zobo Shepherd: this on is a bit more subjective
Zobo Shepherd: you'll have to really watch how the pony and trainer are interacting to be able to score this
Zobo Shepherd: Presentation and Behavior - This is a broad category covering how well they work as a team. Is the pony well cared for, eager to please? The pony attitude will be a factor, how well she behaves and acts. Only one rating for this is needed, and will be judged after the round.
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Zobo Shepherd: Again...this one is fairly subjective....I would imagine most ponies would do well on this category unless they are really acting up
Zobo Shepherd: Responsiveness - The pony's willingness and speed at obeying commands as they are given. Only one rating for this is needed, and will be judged after the round.
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Zobo Shepherd: Again, i think this one is fairly stright forward....any trainer works on this with their pony all the time and can recognize it instantly.
Zobo Shepherd: Rhythm - The smoothness in which the pony moves about the dressage ring, specifically in transitions both from curves to straight and from figure to figure. Only one rating for this is needed, and will be judged after the round.
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Zobo Shepherd: Again, this is something trainers work with all the time, so this is really easy to judge.
Zobo Shepherd: So as you see.....there is some room for varience between judges, but it's pretty stright forward.
Zobo Shepherd: Any questions
Diablo (harold.tryce): Zobo ,is there room for pony trainer creativity in there presentation
Zobo Shepherd: absoluty
Zobo Shepherd: that is to be encouraged
Diablo (harold.tryce): i dont know / loke a spin on the yellow spots
Diablo (harold.tryce): like
Zobo Shepherd: hehe...if they want to
Mikky Heron: one thing to think about.. ties are easier to get in dressage than in timed events.. may want to have a tie breaking method
Zobo Shepherd: Now thats something I hadn't thought about.
KaTrina Velde: On Creativity: have to know it was intended, like Figure Skating judges know in advance what a skater is going to do.
Mikky Heron: there will be at least 4 ponies that have almost perfect routines.. it can happen at the top
Zobo Shepherd: to be honest, i'd rather give two blue ribbons away than have to break a tie.....but it's somethign to think about
Mikky Heron nods
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) raises a hand
Diablo (harold.tryce): mmm
Zobo Shepherd: ok...then a tie breaker might be good
KaTrina Velde: It may be easier when it's not Silent. The trainer can emote soemthing about the pony spinning
Zobo Shepherd: thats another question for Mel
KaTrina Velde sees the Maid waving her barred hands
Zobo Shepherd: hehe....yes Di
Diablo (harold.tryce): thinking as i bow / the pony jumps over my head
Zobo Shepherd: lol
KaTrina Velde: Maid can't Chat, Zobo. She says ". If there is a tie. The judges does a second vote, just straight up which one is better and the most votes wins the tie"
Zobo Shepherd: you had a question Dianthus?
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) does mind thoughts to Miss KaTrina to translate
Zobo Shepherd: that might be a good idea
Zobo Shepherd: thanks di
KaTrina Velde has antennae buried in her big hari
KaTrina Velde: hair
Zobo Shepherd: hehe
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Zobo Shepherd: Ok....just a few more things and then we demonstrate
Diablo (harold.tryce): the judges should confer , before anouncing
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Diablo (harold.tryce): results
Mikky Heron: or you can say "the sum of the skill scores break a tie" or other ways
Zobo Shepherd: here is the one I have a problem understanding and I have an IM into Mel for an interpertation of the rules.
Zobo Shepherd: There will be three judges for each dressage event. Dropping the highest and lowest score, and averaging the remaining scores together will compute the score for each round. Each judge’s score will be averaged together to produce the final score for the round.
The judges will be able to observe the complete dressage arena, usually from an aerial platform. Judges will not be allowed to be a trainer or a pony for the dressage they are judging. Only the trainer and pony will be allowed on the dressage arena during a current round.
Zobo Shepherd: Im not exactly sure which High/Low scores get kicked out
Zobo Shepherd: so Im asking Mel for in interpertation
Diablo (harold.tryce): with only 3 judges
KaTrina Velde: sounds too complicated.
Zobo Shepherd: and i'll get back with y'all when I find out what she means
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Zobo Shepherd: yes...im not sure I like that either KaTrina
KaTrina Velde: Need to be able to add these up and report back in a minute or two.
Diablo (harold.tryce): with 7 judges i could see that
curious Haven: I have a question from DIanthus
Zobo Shepherd: yes
curious Haven: She is gagged, so i am asking it for her
Zobo Shepherd: we many just not throw out hi/lows
Zobo Shepherd: kk
curious Haven: [12:53] Dianthus (erika.dianthus): On the responsiveness rating, if a trainer/pony use silent commands, does the judges know the timing of the commands, are they supposed to figure them out or should the dressage always be done in at least verbal or whip?
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Zobo Shepherd: if it is silent, it is how the pony and trainer are timing their movements around the field that will show that.
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) nods
Zobo Shepherd: when I teach silent, I have every move worked out with the pony before hand.
Zobo Shepherd: so the timeing and fluidity of the program is what it needs to be.
Diablo (harold.tryce): that is the key
KaTrina Velde: I only have the open/close worked out; other than that the pony has no idea.
Zobo Shepherd: exactly
Mikky Heron: there is danger in having "off the card" rules.. not everyone has a chance to know them
curious Haven: smiles
Zobo Shepherd: hummm...please define that Miss Mikky?
Zobo Shepherd: Im not sure I know what you mean
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Mikky Heron: if something in the card is unclear enough to need to get someone's opinion, then it is reasonable to think that someone would interpret it differently
Mikky Heron: the ponies and trainers need to have clarity as to what the standard they should practice to
Diablo (harold.tryce): the judging cards ?
Zobo Shepherd: exactly
Zobo Shepherd: no Diablo...the part about the judging scores
KaTrina Velde: Perhaps Contest events have to be more 'tied down' than show events do?
Zobo Shepherd: and Miss Mikky is exactly right
Diablo (harold.tryce): ok
Zobo Shepherd: thats why I'm going to Mel with that rule.
Zobo Shepherd: I want to know exactly what it means
KaTrina Velde: I keep thinking about things like Figure Skating...
Zobo Shepherd: thats a great analogy
KaTrina Velde: Combination of objective standards and subjectivity...
Mikky Heron nods
Zobo Shepherd: look...I can promise you one thing.....no one will ever agree with you 100% on anything you ever do as a judge.
KaTrina Velde: So they do the "required Program" and then the "free program."
Zobo Shepherd: but the nice thing is...no one will know.
KaTrina Velde nods
Zobo Shepherd: hehe....that would take forever
KaTrina Velde: Yup
Diablo (harold.tryce): good idea / but slow
KaTrina Velde: So I'm thinking that our competitions might have to limit creativity soemwhat...
Zobo Shepherd: as I said, this si not rocket science.....you can tell a 3 performance from a 4 performance.
KaTrina Velde: When we do shows, we can go all out.
Zobo Shepherd: you are worrying way too much about this
KaTrina Velde: OK. What we have to do is try it out some.
KaTrina Velde: Right.
Zobo Shepherd: yes....just do it
KaTrina Velde: Demontration, Zobo?
Zobo Shepherd: trust your own judgement and experience
Zobo Shepherd: yes
Zobo Shepherd: one last thing
Zobo Shepherd: the penalty
Diablo (harold.tryce): no oats
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Zobo Shepherd: The pony and trianer will not be allowed to leave the dressage arena during a round.
Zobo Shepherd: Fully crossing the arena boundaries with both hooves or both feet will lead to a deduction of one point from the total final score for each round.
Diablo (harold.tryce): can we judge lag moves well enough
Zobo Shepherd: yes....if its lag, you'll see it
Zobo Shepherd: if it is a walk outside the line, you will see it
Zobo Shepherd: ok...everyone grab a Judging card from the vendor
Zobo Shepherd: You all will be judging me and KatTrina as we do a routine
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KaTrina Velde whinnies in excitment.
Bridle_HUD whispers: KaTrina Velde is now equiped with Bridle_HUD.
Zobo Shepherd: that notice from button is a good deal....$50 hud gives you all the routine cards you'll ever want
Zobo Shepherd: ok....I'll want to see all your cards when we get done
Zobo Shepherd: so lets do it KaTrina
 KaTrina Velde nickers.
Zobo Shepherd: we'll be doning silent
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curious Haven: I am sorry, Miss Zobo, i must pass. Appologies
Zobo Shepherd: that ok curiious
KaTrina Velde needs to know Zobo's starting sequence
Zobo Shepherd: Come pohy
KaTrina Velde demonstrates lag
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Zobo Shepherd: Go
Mikky Heron waves to button
Button Wright: Ho Scooter
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Mikky Heron claps for the routine!
Swenyia Chuwen smiles at Miss Button
Button Wright: Hi Zobo
Scooter Koala: hi :)
Diablo (harold.tryce): hi button
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Zobo Shepherd: Now judging that shouldn't have been any trouble for anyone
Button Wright: Hi Diablo
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Zobo Shepherd: Hi Miss Button
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Zobo Shepherd: did anyone run into a problem judging that?
 PonyKat hopes she's her own worst critic ...
 PonyKat hopes she's her own worst critic ...
Dianthus: no, miss kaelina
Zobo Shepherd: ok good
Zobo Shepherd: see...this isn't a difficult as we thought
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KaTrina Velde: Well, depends; wonder how close the scores are?
Zobo Shepherd: once you judge a few practice rounds....you'll get the hang of it
Zobo Shepherd: thats what im about to find out
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Zobo Shepherd: please pass your score cards to me.
Diablo (harold.tryce): i was away miss
Zobo Shepherd: ok...I have one score card...is there any more/
Zobo Shepherd: thank you mikky
Zobo Shepherd: wow...you should kiss Mikky KaTrina
Zobo Shepherd: lol
Zobo Shepherd accepted your inventory offer.
Mikky Heron: i'm all for that!
Mikky Heron laughs
KaTrina Velde: I gave myself a 32 total
Zobo Shepherd: ok....with the three scores i hav in front of me.
Mikky Heron: that was a very nice routine.. you can tell you two have been practicing
Dianthus: agleee
KaTrina Velde: Not a bit Mikky. :-)
Zobo Shepherd: Acually, that is the first time we've worked together.
KaTrina Velde: Yes
Zobo Shepherd: the first judge gave us a 39
KaTrina Velde: I hardly ever get to walk the course; I just train.
Zobo Shepherd: the second 47
KaTrina Velde: Yikes!
Zobo Shepherd: the third 34
Zobo Shepherd: that is an average of 40
KaTrina Velde << own worst critic
Zobo Shepherd: so for that round, KaTrina and i have 40 pts.
KaTrina Velde: I would have fallen into Miss Neysa's pool on her water trainer many times. :-)
Zobo Shepherd: if this was a multi round event, lets say three rounds, our three scores would be averaged together for a fina score.
KaTrina Velde nods
Zobo Shepherd: Any questions on scoreing?
KaTrina Velde: Made sense
Zobo Shepherd: See...this isn't tough at all
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Zobo Shepherd: the reason we're nervous about it is because we haven't done it yet
Zobo Shepherd: once you do it, you find its very easy to do.
Mikky Heron: one tip on the competition itself.. it will take about 2 hrs to get 15 routines done... so keep that in mind when deciding how many routines each pony gets
Mikky Heron: Button can confirm the lag, getting competitors on the field, etc can create chaos the day of
Zobo Shepherd: exactly...i'd like to start off with one round events and see how that goes first....lets take baby steps
KaTrina Velde: I think it's One shot, Mikky, unless a pony really gets lagged out.
Mikky Heron smiles and nods
KaTrina Velde: So we'll need to do some demo events; non-competitive, to increase our membership and create some more judges.
Zobo Shepherd: of course....we all know lag when we see it and can dismiss it.
Zobo Shepherd: yep
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Zobo Shepherd: and i'll be doing this class again in diffent times for people who couldn't make it today.
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KaTrina Velde: of course, then tehre's Flower; whole different thing. ;-)
Dianthus (erika.dianthus) whispers: ((The one on the 15th of may will be a one shot, I believe))
Button Wright: I never heard of anyone judging a Flower Dressage event
KaTrina Velde: Right! AliKat has an event scheduled.
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Zobo Shepherd: BTW, I need to ask....how was this class today? Did it answer your questions? What can I add or delete to make this class better?
KaTrina Velde: Right Button, so just Demonstration/Show for now.
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KaTrina Velde: I think you get to take some of the Q&A that got asked and answered, Zobo...
Diablo (harold.tryce): it was clear to me Zobo
KaTrina Velde: Just fold those in to what you presented.